tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post2331566541284191297..comments2024-03-24T19:23:14.865-07:00Comments on Cave of the Dice Chucker: XPs for GPs: Deeply Flawed?Timrod http://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-45505229494262614022013-01-19T01:27:33.773-08:002013-01-19T01:27:33.773-08:00Yes, I like explicit content. What of it?
Seriou...Yes, I like explicit content. What of it?<br /><br />Seriously though, what John did that was different from your comments was compare incentivized gameplay to non-incentivized gameplay. <br /> Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-64881125670569398822013-01-18T09:35:11.215-08:002013-01-18T09:35:11.215-08:00@ Timrod
Everyone is Type B because nobody likes ...@ Timrod<br /><br />Everyone is Type B because nobody likes dealing with things that are ultimately irrelevant.<br /><br />That being said, "XP for GP" does not add something per se but modifies something (i.e. general gameplay and advancement); the same thing that every alternative XP system modifies but in a way none of the others can.<br /><br />By my post I meant that a couple of us had actually given you a detailed description of how this rule changes things, yet you got interested in it only when somebody explicitly mentioned its adding something to it.Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-3250569051801652372013-01-16T23:17:06.290-08:002013-01-16T23:17:06.290-08:00et tu Brendan?et tu Brendan?Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-4559656432846329462013-01-16T21:39:40.809-08:002013-01-16T21:39:40.809-08:00Okay, more on topic.
Here is the most recent play...Okay, more on topic.<br /><br />Here is the most recent play report from one of my players, drafted with no connection to this particular post.<br /><br /><a href="http://dungeonofsigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/pahvelorn-these-ziggurats-contain-no.html" rel="nofollow">http://dungeonofsigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/pahvelorn-these-ziggurats-contain-no.html</a><br /><br />I think (in this case, at least) the incentive is pretty important to the game play.<br /><br />But the game itself is also quite rich with other character motivations and goals. For example, the goals of the clerics to cleanse shrines and seek out the demonic to combat, the goals of the magic-user to improve his craft, etc. All of those goals and motivations sit within the matrix of treasure seeking though. And it feels very natural.<br /><br />Also, I find the XP from GP spent (rather than just acquired) decreases the sense of double dipping, if that is a hangup.<br /><br />Like you, I didn't play with XP = GP originally (when I started in the 90s with 2E, where treasure XP was deemphasized). I have only started playing this way after I learned the incentive and "smart play" theories behind it, and I am quite happy with the result.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-75161774852500608952013-01-16T21:32:55.545-08:002013-01-16T21:32:55.545-08:00Timrod wrote: No single (survivable) encounter is ...Timrod wrote: <i>No single (survivable) encounter is ever going to level-up a character in one shot, so players, in my experience as both player and DM, find it rather easy to put XP acquisition out of mind at the encounter level.</i><br /><br />One of my players did actually gain a level with the help of a natural 20 and a Raggi table, but I suppose that is neither here nor there.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-66641096481341541842013-01-12T18:57:48.996-08:002013-01-12T18:57:48.996-08:00At Ynas:
Which argument is more likely to sway yo...At Ynas:<br /><br />Which argument is more likely to sway you:<br /><br />A> "This way is awesome because the book says so" <br /><br />B> "This way is awesome because it adds something to the experience"<br /><br />I'm a type B guy.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-77218593419309581832013-01-12T01:51:23.045-08:002013-01-12T01:51:23.045-08:00"<>
Thank you! This is the first thing..."<><br /><br />Thank you! This is the first thing I've heard in this debate that has made me even mildly interested in giving GPs for XPs a 2nd chance."<br /><br />Really? You do realise that there were a couple of posts actually defining that something, don't you?Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-77843680345762153202013-01-11T22:27:06.545-08:002013-01-11T22:27:06.545-08:00John:
"I've played D&D without XP, a...John:<br /><br />"I've played D&D without XP, and it was fun. I've played D&D with XP for GP, and it definitely adds something"<br /><br />Thank you! This is the first thing I've heard in this debate that has made me even mildly interested in giving GPs for XPs a 2nd chance. Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-22474998692250309142013-01-11T22:21:48.606-08:002013-01-11T22:21:48.606-08:00-C: Your continued use of "disparaging" ...-C: Your continued use of "disparaging" leads me to believe that there's still a disconnect here. <br /><br />What I was questioning in the post way up above was the <i>logic</i> of using treasure acquisition as a metric for gauging character advancement, not its impact on gameplay. I did overreact to John a bit there, but I'm seriously not sitting here thinking you guys are all a bunch of douchebags for playing the game differently than I do.<br /><br />Just so's we're clear.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-48222223742046256992013-01-11T03:07:41.202-08:002013-01-11T03:07:41.202-08:00@Timrod: I didn't mean to give that impression...@Timrod: I didn't mean to give that impression, I've been enjoying the discussion so far. I don't begrudge you playing the game any way you want, I just think a lot of your criticism is based on a misunderstanding about how and why people are using XP.<br /><br />My opinion boils down to this: I've played D&D without XP, and it was fun. I've played D&D with XP for GP, and it definitely adds <i>something</i>; some people might not prefer it but it's a different experience and the system does what it's designed to do well, it's not fundamentally flawed. I've played D&D with XP for battles and challenges, and it was fun, but I found it slightly frustrating. Like any roleplayer I can ignore what's tactically best in favour of what will be most amusing, but I like to have the option. XP-for-difficulty robs me of that by making what's optimal for my <i>character</i> different from what's optimal for me as a player of a game. I have to choose between the game as an intellectual exercise, and the game as make-believe. Moreover, since the metagame no longer rewards being clever or thinking creatively, it's not even an exercise I particularly enjoy. So I ignore it and focus on in-character goals, at which point I no longer have any control over my level progression, and from my perspective it might as well be arbitrary.<br /><br />When the metagame and the make-believe line up, i.e. my interests and my character's interests are identical, I get to have my bread buttered on both sides.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-84016946399645548702013-01-10T22:02:41.221-08:002013-01-10T22:02:41.221-08:00It's not about what you can contribute. It'...It's not about what you can contribute. It's about experiencing the actual results (and why they are so gloriously fun and entertaining) of what you are disparaging.<br /><br />You would have as much to contribute as any player.-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331863932906631618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-77602826523728622982013-01-10T21:16:34.321-08:002013-01-10T21:16:34.321-08:00John: I had assumed by the tone of your previous ...John: I had assumed by the tone of your previous comment that we had descended to the unpleasant--if sometimes entertaining--"hostile and belittling" phase of the debate. As my interpretation seems to be in error, I'm the one owing the apology. Sorry for the belittling hostility, it was in poor taste.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-74954432994079927412013-01-10T17:39:46.023-08:002013-01-10T17:39:46.023-08:00@Timrod: Your response seems hostile and belittlin...@Timrod: Your response seems hostile and belittling. I'm sorry if I've said something to offend you.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-43577280309867166572013-01-10T15:56:20.511-08:002013-01-10T15:56:20.511-08:00@Yinas: I absolutely agree; character advancement ...@Yinas: I absolutely agree; <i>character advancement</i> is a major motivator. But it's a macro-level motivator; it gets PCs to seek out adventure instead of staying at the tavern chatting up barmaids or honing their backgammon skills all day. <br /><br />But once in the dungeon, they're engaging advancement at the micro-level. No single (survivable) encounter is ever going to level-up a character in one shot, so players, in my experience as both player and DM, find it rather easy to put XP acquisition out of mind at the encounter level. Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-30007571177763685162013-01-10T14:50:14.333-08:002013-01-10T14:50:14.333-08:00@ Timrod:
I strongly believe that (regardless of w...@ Timrod:<br />I strongly believe that (regardless of what mechanics is responsible for it) character advancement affects gameplay very much. Without it, the game wouldn't be the same; also, it is something by which the DM can reward the players (for acting somehow which he believes to be worth the reward).<br /><br />@ Joshua L. Lyle:<br />I'd also add that it generally stands for the voiced TH-sound (as in "thou").Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-41551302301762517782013-01-10T13:48:47.717-08:002013-01-10T13:48:47.717-08:00@Joshua L. Awesome! Thanks for the hookup.@Joshua L. Awesome! Thanks for the hookup.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-87561346933841199372013-01-10T13:46:44.199-08:002013-01-10T13:46:44.199-08:00@-C:
"the only thing it does is illustrate h...@-C:<br /><br />"the only thing it does is illustrate how little you understand of the gameplay that occurs in gold for xp games"<br /><br />Cloak of Ignorance, buddy. Best cloak I've ever owned. <br /><br />Seriously though, I fear we're now talking about separate issues; I have never intended to disparage the <i>gameplay</i> of GPs vs XPs. Indeed the thesis of my comments here have been that I'm a strong believer that XPs should not affect gameplay regardless of how they are acquired. Nowhere have I said that GPs for XPs leads to inferior gameplay, nor do I believe such is the case. <br /><br />Thanks for your offer to join your game. It's very generous of you; especially considering our heretofore relationship of mutual disparagement. But if you're game is a competition to gain the most XPs--and I'm not saying it is, but your other comments might be construed to imply that such is the kind of game you prefer--then, no offense intended, but I really don't think I'd have much to contribute. <br /><br />Again, thanks very much for the offer; it's noble of you to invite an infidel to enjoy the bounty of your gaming table. Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-46984287702910923232013-01-10T13:39:50.097-08:002013-01-10T13:39:50.097-08:00Honestly? Copied it off of Wikipedia.
That's ...Honestly? Copied it off of Wikipedia.<br /><br />That's an "eth", and it makes the "th" sound, but it's only used in the middle or at the end of the word (you use þ at the beginning).<br /><br />copypastecharacter.com is also great for that kind of thing.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-20084179103411946402013-01-10T13:12:07.484-08:002013-01-10T13:12:07.484-08:00@ Joshua L: You raise a lot of really good points...@ Joshua L: You raise a lot of really good points. I especially like your take on antiquarians. Way more imaginative than I could have come up with. <br /><br />I should come clean about a few things here. This post was not meant to be a "Top 4 reasons GPs for XPs are worthless" though I can see why it was interpreted as such. I intended the tone to be less of an assault. But I wrote this post several weeks ago, then it sat on the back-burner over the holidays. When I finally got back to it, I just threw it to the winds without a preamble to defang it. Apparently, I'm finding, this is a good way to get a debate started. <br /> <br />also, I'm curious how you made that funky character in "godi" or whatever that word is.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-41730257748104277422013-01-10T12:28:38.766-08:002013-01-10T12:28:38.766-08:00You know when you say that, the only thing it does...You know when you say that, the only thing it does is illustrate how little you understand of the gameplay that occurs in gold for xp games.<br /><br />Fortunately that is eaisly rectified. There are many games on g+ that run with gold for xp. In fact, I will be starting mine in a month or so.<br /><br />If you'd like to experience what we are talking about, there is a seat at my table that I will make for you anytime. So you can find out that what the actual effect of hold for xp does is cause engaged highly creative play. You are welcome to sit at my table and actually experience what we are talking about and how it works in play, instead of disparaging something that you are unfamiliar with. If you aren't interested in my game, there are hundreds of others, every day and time of the week. If you have time to blog, you have time to play.-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331863932906631618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-66121030834754803182013-01-10T12:17:09.252-08:002013-01-10T12:17:09.252-08:00@ John:
I count myself fortunate, then, for never...@ John:<br /><br />I count myself fortunate, then, for never having played the game with folks who would rather kick over mushrooms in search of XPs than engage in the game world. If I owe this to my failure to understand the origins of XPs, then I'll gladly wrap myself in my cloak of ignorance and keep on enjoying the game. <br /><br />I pity the mercenary-gamers out there who are unable to immerse themselves in the world of imagination where the game is lived, not just played. You're really missing out on something special.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-56857858932163732013-01-10T08:38:44.211-08:002013-01-10T08:38:44.211-08:00I think the main problem I have is that your first...I think the main problem I have is that your first point undercuts all of the others: money buys (and represents) power. One way to reflect that is with levels/HD. One way this might come out is that personally powerful rulers are hard to stab to death (Caesar, Rasputin). ACKS operates on this principle. To some extent, so does Pendragon (although the sources of Glory in Pendragon are multitudinous, wealth is a significant one).<br /><br />This takes care of the logical disconnect in the core settings. The sacks of coins are helpful in properly honoring Thor (most worship lead by rich goði chieftain-priests) or Zeus (whose temple was used as the Roman treasury). Porters are shlubs because the money they move isn't their money, but if they steal it and get away with it they are evidently great thieves (and thus should probably have levels). "Antique dealers" sounds like a code-word for "magic user" in the tune that Vancian casters are disparaged as "stamp collectors"; so I wouldn't find it odd for successful antiquarians to be draped in power.<br /><br />GPs may not be commensurate with the difficulty of their acquisition, but neither is their worth as money as such; "pecunia non olet". In Anglo-Saxon England a man could become a thegn by acquiring sufficient land and household or by leading merchant ventures overseas at their expense. By that thegn-right they would be expected to provide themselves with arms and be able to use them when called, and so should in the normal course of things be expected to be fighters of more-than-common ability directly because of their wealth, regardless of how they came by it.<br /><br />Intangible rewards of heroism can be brought into the scoring mechanism by giving them tangible trappings. If thief 1 is feted by the fisherman's family and village, I would regard the value of the fete as worth XP, although giving XP for "quest rewards" is controversial. For that matter, I would likely award XP equal to the fisherman's weregild or the price of a slave of similar skill - the fisherman himself is the treasure in a sense. Difficult actions that have no consequence (such as just climbing a big mountain because it's there) are probably either not worth scoring or are worthy of being assigned special value in their own right (ala Pendragon Glory awards).<br /><br />None of these arguments are universal or insurmountable, but I think the idea of GP for XP makes more sense that you give it credit for.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-49937248681572112792013-01-10T04:31:04.539-08:002013-01-10T04:31:04.539-08:00@Timrod: XP do function as incentive to game behav...@Timrod: XP do function as incentive to game behaviour. That's their intended function. XP are the implicit underlying "goal" of the game - as -C says, essentially your "score". By accumulating XP, the players gain levels, which grants them a better chance of survival, access to new spells, and the ability to tackle greater dangers. This in turn allows them to enjoy the game in new and different ways. The XP/level advancement system is the underlying engine on which D&D runs - imagine how different a D&D game in which players never advanced in level would be to see the truth of that.<br /><br />Yes, I've had players explicitly make decisions based on XP gain. When XP awards line up naturally with the party's other motivations (like greed), there's nothing jarring about that. I've also had players who pretty much ignore XP and wealth to do their own thing, which is fine too (players don't need incentive for personal goals). I feel the game runs best when the implicit goals set by the rules match the playstyle agreed on before the game. By default, that's treasure hunting. Under such a playstyle, I'd say that <i>most</i> of the players' major decisions were based on gaining XP/wealth (second only to what we thought would be most fun). You say you haven't used the system as intended since 1981, so it's not surprising you haven't experienced this. <br /><br />That's not the only way to play, of course. In my early games we would run a bunch of mini-campaigns under rotating DMs, and at the end of each one we'd all level up. Those games weren't about treasure-hunting, we usually had (or made) some specific goal. We didn't try to use the XP system, because it doesn't really make sense to use it for other than what it's designed for. <br /><br />You don't believe that XP function as an incentive. Do your players want to level up? Generally, yes, for the reasons given above. Anything the players want is an incentive. Everyone can choose to ignore that incentive, but at that point the XP system is basically superfluous and you might as well replace it with something that better fits your game.<br /><br />If you want to hack XP into a "realistic" means of progression, that's of course up to you, although I seriously question whether you've chosen the right tool for the job. But your criticisms of the system are based on a lack of understanding of what it was designed for, and what other people use it for.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-90576497544327215412013-01-09T22:25:20.425-08:002013-01-09T22:25:20.425-08:00@-c: I'll take your word for it. Thanks.@-c: I'll take your word for it. Thanks.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8267677579874715622.post-53350690948024974162013-01-09T22:17:46.405-08:002013-01-09T22:17:46.405-08:00@Ynas: How do the PCs know the treasure is in the...@Ynas: How do the PCs know the treasure is in there? Do they know what the treasure consists of? If they're encumbered at the moment, does it make sense for them to leave the skeletons be until such time as they have the capacity to retrieve the treasure? <br /><br />Why are the PCs in the dungeon? Do they just like to kill shit? Have they been geased to restore the sanctity of the Saint's crypt? Are they there to wipe out the army of undead that has been vomiting forth into the lands above? Or do they just want to find the Ranger's cell phone that she dropped down a storm drain? <br /><br />If the PCs are truly disinterested in the saint's treasure, does the room itself have strategic value? Do they need to pass through it get to the 3rd level? Secure it as an escape root? Check to see if the ranger's cell phone is in there? <br /><br />If they don't kill those skeletons now, will they come back to haunt them later? Is the dungeon a hack 'n slash megadungeon with room after room of encounters linked only by proximity? Is there another, better saint's treasure stashed down the hall? Are the PCs under a time constraint to get out before Yog Sothoth rises? Can't the ranger just take the saint's treasure and buy a new fucking iphone already?<br /><br />That is to say, Saint's treasures guarded by a dozen skeletal warriors don't exist in a void. There are going to be countless inputs to that equation that are going to, in my experience, far outweigh the (in-)significance of XP gain. Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.com